Commons:Village pump/Copyright

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Deprecate Template:PD-BNF and Template:PD-GallicaScan[edit]

The templates {{PD-BNF}} and {{PD-GallicaScan}} were created in 2008 when the general assumption was that everything the Bibliotheque Nationale de France scanned for Gallica is in the public domain. As we know now, that is not the case, and the BNF has changed the rights remark for many of its magazine, newspaper etc. scans to ""Droits  : Consultable en ligne" (rights: can be viewed online) - at least in the French language version; in the English version, you can confusingly still often read Rights: public domain for the very same magazine or paper, while the German version doesn't mention the copyright status at all.

Anyway, it should be clear that because some file is from the BNF or Gallica, that does not mean it's automatically in the public domain. So my proposal is to deprecate these two tags and mark them accordingly that they should not be used for new files. For new files from BNF/Gallica that are in the public domain for some other reason (because the author died over 70 years ago etc.), only the regular PD-old, PD-scan etc. tags should be used. If we don't do this, these tags will always come back to bite us in the a** because people will use them for new uploads. Thoughts? --Rosenzweig τ 10:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Mostly  Support. Wording of these templates in indeed a problem. It should be mentioned that there are not sufficient for Commons, that a verification of the copyright status and a proper license are needed. Yann (talk) 11:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mostly  Support per Yann.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 11:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  •  Support Admittedly I don't have much experience in the area, but the proposal seems reasonable from doing a basic glance at the templates and how they are being used. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, I've changed both templates so that they now say the file might NOT be in the public domain and might be deleted if not in the PD; also that other valid license tags should be used. To do this, I've created a new marker template {{PD Gallica warning}} (modeled on {{PD German stamps warning}}).

The specific wording could probably still be improved. Thoughts on that? --Rosenzweig τ 12:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hmm. We have now 1,403,257 files with a deprecated template. How do we fix that? Yann (talk) 12:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For a large-scale tag swap we'd probably need a bot. Anything from ca. 1900 or before should most likely be ok, so perhaps the license tags for these files could be replaced with a suitable PD-old tag by a bot? For anything newer (and that might still be a lot), we'd probably need a file by file manual review. And that would most likely take a long time, see the German stamps situtation still in progress after a decade. --Rosenzweig τ 13:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Precisely. We have 1.4 million files with a giant PLEASE DELETE ME sign on them, maybe some miniscule fraction of 1% actually might need removal upon request. Yes, the wording should be changed to the usual & much more neutral "... has been deprecated. This template should be changed to ..." like these things normally have.
Absolutely, though, the shift will require bots and we shouldn't be going out of our way to encourage removal of the files until such bots are available. This cart got waaaaaaay out in front of its horse. — LlywelynII 04:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fwiw,  Strong oppose until this can be handled better and less disruptively than what's currently going on. I've spent multiple weeks of my life on editing and research for several hundred of the files badly impacted by this. Others are doubtless in the same boat. The way we handle PD-Art would've been a much better way to handle this: "...please specify why the underlying work is public domain in both the source country and the United States..." Simply changing the PD license to PD-Old etc. will remove the previously provided links to the BNF files.
@Yann: @Jeff G.: @Adamant1: Those arguments might not cause you to change your vote ("might as well get started & the links don't matter") but, given how this has shaken out in practice, do you have suggestions for minimizing the damage and disorder this is going to cause? Are there any mass-PD-editing utilities similar to HotCat for categories to speed this up? I have to edit everything here through a series of proxies to get over the Great Firewall & going file by file would be a vastly prohibitive waste of time. — LlywelynII 05:05, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My suggestion would be to look into how the review of German stamps was handled after they were found not to be PD. Which, as Rosenzweig has pointed out, still hasn't been fully dealt with 10 years later. So I don't think you have to worry about all the files being immediately deleted. Nor does anyone expect you to deal with it on your own. Let alone at all. Just as long there's a consensus about how to handle it and basic things being done to move in the direction of reviewing the files at some point. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Adamant1: Did those stamps come with 24+ point text "warning" that the files "could" be deleted at any point? I'm dubious. — LlywelynII 06:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, but neither does anything having to do with have such a warning either. If you look at the template for German stamps though it says "this file is most likely NOT in the public domain. It has been marked for review, and will be deleted in due course if the review does not find it to be in the public domain. Which I think is totally reasonable. If you look at there's still upwards of 8 thousand files that haven't been reviewed. That's just ones that are included in the category to, but there's others. With German stamps specifically, they are only being reviewed now because I've been slowly going through them over the past year. There's no one gunning to delete anything in mass though. So your assertion that the files will be immediately deleted the second we implement this is clearly hyperbole. Really, probably no one is going to delete the files. Let alone any time soon or in mass. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@LlywelynII: So what is your proposal for the wording of the templates? And how do you think should we prevent them being used to upload copyrighted files, as some users are doing now? If we don't stop that, the amount of files will only get larger. And as Adamant1 pointed out, nobody in fact proposed to delete over 1 million files. Right now it says that the files might not be in the public domain and might be deleted. --Rosenzweig τ 05:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you're curious, in toto, this seems like a (bad) answer searching for a (miniscule) problem. The template was largely fine and helpfully included a link to the BNF that the current solution will just delete. The things that shouldn't be uploaded shouldn't've been uploaded with or without this template's existence. They can be uploaded with or without this template's existence. The template could be rephrased to only cover the appropriate material. The problem would be exactly the same and it wouldn't be putting 1.4 million valid files at risk.
At minimum (as already explained above) the language of the edit should be more neutral, more in keeping with similar templates like PD-Art, and simply request that separate/additional licensing be provided. — LlywelynII 06:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@LlywelynII: "has been depreciated": I presume you mean "has been deprecated". (Normally I'd let is slide, but since this appears to be a proposed edit…) - Jmabel ! talk 06:04, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel: "Normally I'd let is slide": I presume you mean "I'd let it slide". (Normally I'd let it slide, but since this appears to be needless snark... Yes, if the normal phrasing is slightly different, sure, use some version of that instead. Neither here nor there. Still, do kindly leave some notes on the merits of what we're talking about. It's possible I'm just completely wrong in thinking that the current phrasing will cause a much bigger problem than the original issue. Some of the original posters hadn't even noticed that 1.4 million files were affected, though.) — LlywelynII 06:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@LlywelynII: "included a link to the BNF that the current solution will just delete": Which "current solution" do you mean? All links to BNF in the file descriptions are still there, none were deleted. And yes, when replacing the PD-GallicScan tag with an appropriate PD-old tag, another template with just the link (like {{Gallica}}, which does that without any claim of public domain) will have to be added at the same time. --Rosenzweig τ 07:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've changed the templates a bit so that the collapsed section with the deprecated tag is now expanded by default. --Rosenzweig τ 08:00, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We need a wording saying these are not eligible for a mass deletion, just to prevent fear and conflicts. There are a lot of cases where the BNF doesn't claim a copyright, although it could, e.g. File:Portrait Roi de france Clovis.jpg. Would replacing the current template by {{CC-0}} be OK? Yann (talk) 10:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've changed the wording of {{PD Gallica warning}} so that possible deletion is now mentioned in the last paragraph. @Yann: What do you mean with your CC-0 proposal? Insert CC-0 in those cases you mentioned "where the BNF doesn't claim a copyright, although it could"? You mean in addition to a PD-old template for the underlying work? --Rosenzweig τ 13:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, thanks. Yes, in addition to a license for the content itself, we need a license for the picture when it is not 2D (i.e. when PD-Art/PD-scan doesn't apply). Yann (talk) 13:47, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Does the BNF explicitly refer to CC-0 somewhere, or is this some other declaration that they don' claim such copyrights? Or is it just implicit / assumed etc.? Even if it is "only" implicit, we can most likely still find a way to express that, but we should try to get it as correct as we can. For the coin image you linked, the BNF now says "Droits : Consultable en ligne". Is that their new default? --Rosenzweig τ 17:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
May be. BNF doesn't use CC-0, but there is usually a "public domain" mention. I wonder if we should use PD-self or CC-0, or something else. There are a number of cases where they said that the pictures are in the public domain, and later changed their mind, e.g. File:En attendant Godot, Festival d'Avignon, 1978 f22.jpg. Fernand Michaud donated all his pictures to the BNF, and they were available with a public domain notice, but that was later changed. Yann (talk) 17:38, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe create something under Category:No known restrictions license tags? - Jmabel ! talk 20:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, there were no new contributions here (or in the parallel COM:VP discussion) for a few days now, so the initial fears of imminent mass deletions seem to have died down. There was no bot mass-tagging files as missing license tags because of the tag deprecation, and nobody was launching mass deletion requests because of it.

So the task at hand is now how to replace the bulk (hopefully) of the PD-GallicaScan and PD-BNF license tags with better and more fitting tags so only a small percentage (hopefully very small) of them remain to be examined if they have to be put through the deletion process.

I've looked at various categories and files both here and at the BNF web site, and I've noticed that we really cannot rely (anymore, if ever) on what the BNF writes on the file description pages as far as copyright is concerned. In the French description, for all files at which I've looked I found "Droits : Consultable en ligne", regardless if it was a map from the 1600s or a magazine from 1970. In the English description, they say "Rights: public domain" for the very same files, 1600s map as well as 1970 magazine. In other languages (German, Spanish, Italian, Russian) I didn't see anything about copyright in the descriptions. Given that situation, what the BNF writes on its file description pages about copyright has become meaningless, and it really was about time that we retired and deprecated those tags.

Now what the proper replacement tags for PD-GallicaScan and PD-BNF are depends on the individual file. For those with named authors it would be some variety of PD-old or PD-old-auto, plus a tag like PD-expired or PD-1996 if they're also in the public domain in the US. I don't know how well a bot could do this, maybe better if the file description page uses a specific {{Creator}} tag for the author. For files with no named author, but a date older than 120 years, PD-old-assumed(-expired) could be a solution.

I've looked at some press agency photos from the Rol and Meurisse agencies we have which usually came from Gallica. The usual rationale here is that these agency photos are collective works accd. to French copyright, and {{PD-France}} applies if they're older than 70 years. I've tried to change some tags with VisualFileChange, and changed the tags of 200 files or so in Category:1927 photographs by Agence Rol and Category:1926 photographs by Agence Rol. Namely those that simply used {{PD-GallicaScan}} without any parameters, and I've changed that to {{PD-Scan-two|PD-France||PD-US-expired|}}. Stuff like that – very similar files which all take the same relatively simple license tags and are already grouped in categories fitting for the task – could be done without bots with the assistance of VFC, somewhat reducing the overall usage of the deprecated tags. Besides the press agency photos, are there any other suggestions for similar cases?

While VFC can help somewhat, a large number of file description pages will probably have to be changed by bots, especially those where the tags have parameters, which may not be what one excepts (like {{PD-BNF|{{ARK-BNF|ark:/12148/btv1b53184933b}}}}, combining two tags that probably weren't meant to go together). Those are probably too complex to be cleanly replaced with VFC. What do you think would be the best way to proceed with this? Simply turn up at Commons:Bots/Work requests? Ask somewhere else? Gather more details first on what exactly should be changed, preferably not here but somewhere else where it won't be archived after a week of no new contributions? --Rosenzweig τ 16:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Rosenzweig: Without very specific parameters, I would not want to touch this as a bot task. I don't read French.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 16:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Rosenzweig: I'm not grasping why you think VFC wouldn't be the main tool for this. Admittedly, I've never taken on something this large that way, but the key to using VFC effectively for this sort of thing is usually to start by a well-chosen search to find a set of images whose tags you want to change in a particular way, and I suspect that a lot of progress could be made reasonably quickly in that manner. - Jmabel ! talk 22:21, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel: We'll see. I've now discovered that a huge lump of the 1.4 million files (about half) are in Category:Manuscripts from Gallica (Bibliothèque nationale de France) uploaded by Gzen92Bot, so uploaded by a bot. There are subcategories there for the works, containing the files for the single pages, and while some only have 2 files, others have over 500. Most are probably somewhere between those two. Per Category:Manuscripts from Gallica, many have less than 10 though. I've changed the tags in a 500+ category already with VFC, that went well I think, and by concentrating on the larger categories one could get down the number of template usages fairly quickly. Until only the smaller categories are left to change, and those would be more tiresome. Maybe the bot operator who uploaded these files could help out. --Rosenzweig τ 22:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh, and PS, not every search can be used as a basis for VFC unfortunately, as I found out. You can search for "has template XYZ" and everything, but VFC then won't accept that search, or more precisely, you're not even offered to use VFC then. --Rosenzweig τ 22:39, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Copyright status of tattoos[edit]

Does anyone know what the copyright status of tattoos is or who would own the copyright if they are copyrightable? I was thinking maybe they would be treated the same as graffiti since the original artist is often anonymous and hard to prove in court, but I don't know. I guess there's only been one court case having to do with tattoos. So maybe it doesn't even matter. Although the court did ultimately side with the artist. So it's probably worth clarifying regardless. Adamant1 (talk) 07:08, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Adamant1 Probably NotOK due to COM:FOP US? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Good call. I hadn't thought about FOP. Probably the same would go for other countries if it's applicable. --Adamant1 (talk) 14:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pre-1989 US tattoos would not be copyrighted, since that would have required notice and/or registration, which I'm sure never occurred. - Jmabel ! talk 18:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In this case, @Mykola7: 's File:Stardust_January_2015.jpg might also be a question, need inputs from COM:TOO US professors. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Certainly OK. It's a picture of a person, which inevitably captures their tattoos, just like it inevitably captures their clothing. - Jmabel ! talk 03:14, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Wizard of Oz (1933 animated film)[edit]

Hi, I don't see any discussion about this animated film (not the 1939 film). English WP article used to be in a "Films in the public domain" category, now removed, but without any reference. It is on IA with a "public domain" mention. Any idea? Yann (talk) 11:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That red link to a non-existing category was added without reference two days ago [1]. It was removed by the bot today because it's a link to a category that does not exist. The mentions at IA are notoriously unreliable to the point of being rather useless. All that does not tell any useful indication. But maybe you could ask to the user who added that red link if they have reliable information on the matter. If not, that would probably require the usual research, possibly complicated by the apparently complex colorization history. -- Asclepias (talk) 13:31, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's hard to tell if it was actually published in any way in 1933. Without that information, it's hard to tell whether it's actually in the PD.--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't understand. There is a copyright notice with the date 1933. Isn't that sufficient to establish the date of publication? I search for copyright renewal by Ted Eshbaugh, but I couldn't find anything. Could it be under another name? Yann (talk) 22:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I didn't watch the movie; yeah, a copyright notice makes a pretty strong presumption, and I didn't see renewals in the appropriate files. I think we're safe calling this PD-US-no renewal.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Information about this film's release seems to be spotty. I didn't find much in reliable sources, other than that there was a lawsuit by Technicolor that blocked the initial release plans. Some unreliable sources (blogs/forums) say that it was released only in Canada. If that's true, then URAA restoration likely applies and the film is still copyrighted in the U.S. until 2029. Other sources say the film was never released, in which case it may be copyrighted until 2040 (70 years pma; producer Ted Eshbaugh died in 1969). (The film was released on video compilations in the 1980's, but it's not clear that those were authorized publications.) Toohool (talk) 19:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Toohool: How would prints get to Canada without being released to a common carrier? Doesn't that count as publication in the US?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 19:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jeff G.: Co-producer J.R. Booth owned Film Laboratories of Canada, the Canadian licensee for the Technicolor process, so it certainly seems plausible that he could have printed the film there and distributed it within the country. Toohool (talk) 19:59, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"I personally created this media"[edit]

I don't get the copyright situation of this image. The photographer's name, according to metadata, is Helen Ree. The uploader is a Swiss library account which is managed by three persons, none of whom is named Helen(e) Ree (they didn't even bother to spell her name correctly in the summary). Yet, the account claims "I personally created this media" and publishes it under a CC 4.0 license. How does all that go together with Swiss copyright law? --2003:C0:8F25:6900:D5C4:E24D:490C:DC3A 19:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The template in question isn't a copyright template, it's a subject-consent template. The wording is not entirely appropriate to that photo but, really, if its an official photo within an organization I don't think there is a problem that the uploader isn't the copyright-holder. - Jmabel ! talk 20:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Does the organisation have the right to re-license? Why would a photographer sell a photo with a CC 4.0 license? --2003:C0:8F25:6900:D5C4:E24D:490C:DC3A 21:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure I understand your concern. Why do you assume that the photographer was outside the organization and that the image was sold? Why would there be anything odd about part of a sale being the granting of a license? (I've had occasion to issue CC licenses on numerous commissioned photos, and also sold licenses to use an already CC-licensed photo without the usual conditions of that CC license. I don't think either of those scenarios are unusual.)
All things being equal, we have every reason to trust ETH-Bibliothek to know what they are doing. It's not as if they are an unknown entity, or someone who is known for playing fast and loose with rights. We don't really have a template to say "This person is one of our co-workers and I know they consented to have this photo taken even though I personally wasn't the photographer," so presumably they used {{Consent}}, which is close enough, rather than write custom text. - Jmabel ! talk 23:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel maybe a COM:VRTS email from the claimed licensee solves the question? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@JWilz12345: It would certainly solve any doubt, but I don't see anything here that makes me doubt this at all. Do you? - Jmabel ! talk 03:20, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm usually as suspicious as anyone else about these kinds of things, but she was educated at and is employeed by the uploader. So there's no reason to doubt them about it. Although with the caviet that it probably go the other way if the image was clearly being used for promotional reasons. But I'm not really seeing any evidence of that in this case. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

O.k., I'll give it another try to explain my point.
1. We do not know who the photographer is. These companies may use someone from within the company, or they may employ an outside photographer to do their company portraits. This image looks very much like a professional photo to me, so I would suspect the latter.
2. In the case of an outside photographer, they are going to have some sort of a contract, and the company is going to buy the usage rights from the photographer. NOT the copyright.
3. The contract for usage will include some sort of a license. But what license? Is that really a CC 4.0 license? Why would a photographer use the CC 4.0 license for their contracts? Isn't that just like giving away their photos for free?
--2003:C0:8F18:6600:281F:69D8:CFB3:DB08 08:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not sure why you are assuming that using an external photographer (if that is what happened here) prevents transfer of copyright. In my own company, our contracts with external photographers transfer all rights from the photographer (except their right to be identified as the photographer, if they wish to be identified). Generally, my company wants to control if, when and how our corporate images are published outside of the organisation. Buying the rights in the initial contract with the photographer is the simplest step to achieve that. In the case of one of our company employees taking the photograph in a work context, their contract of employment automatically transfers the copyright to the company. From Hill To Shore (talk) 08:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seal of the Islamic State[edit]

I have found a HQ-version of the seal, which was used on many administrative documents, issued by the Islamic State (when it was a proto-state, and controlled large parts of Iraq and Syria). And I want to upload this seal to Commons. Can this seal be uploaded using {{PD-ineligible}}?

Seal: https://web.archive.org/web/20231210232546/https://i.ibb.co/cbBLpTS/IS-seal.png
Document, from which the seal was extracted: https://archive.org/details/gld-dnr-is-descrpt
A lot of different administrative documents, which use this seal:

صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 23:08, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@صلاح الأوكراني: Who is the author? When did they author it, in what state that is a member of the Berne Convention or any other copyright treaty?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 23:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The exact author is unknown. The seal was created by some administrative bodies of the Islamic State. And this seal was created on territories, which belong to Syria and Iraq, but at that time (2013—2019) were controlled and governed by the Islamic State. صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 00:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi, That would be OK if it was in English. However some countries claim a copyright on calligraphy (e.g. China). And I don't speak Arabic, so I can't say if this is complex enough to get a copyright. Yann (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Yann Given COM:TOO Morocco this looks like at least copyright-able in Morocco, but for Iraq and Syria, there seems like lack of clarification from local users. Need inputs from Arabic-speaking Commons administrators: @Aude, Dyolf77, Mhhossein, Tarawneh, and علاء: Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the ping. I don't speak Arabic but this calligraphic seal seems to have a level of decorativeness. --Mhhossein talk 19:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mhhossein: Thanks. Please adjust your babel boxes and COM:A accordingly.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 19:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jeff G.: You're welcome Jeff. If you are asking me to remove 'Ar' from the babel box, then I should say that I know the basics of Arabic, as I mentioned, but I don't speak Arabic as Liuxinyu970226's comment implies. --Mhhossein talk 19:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mhhossein: Ok.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 19:58, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

UPD: I have found a book (published in 1954), which uses on its cover page exactly the same font, as on the seal. So, it seems to me, that it could be a regular font for headings. — صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 00:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@صلاح الأوكراني: that's the best evidence so far. I'd mention that in the "permissions" field if you are uploading as {{PD-textlogo}}. - Jmabel ! talk 01:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel: I have uploaded it here: File:IS seal.png. Also I added in the “permissions” field some other examples of the font, used in the seal. — صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Possible incompatible license for museum boat model image[edit]

The "Please note" comment about non-commercial use seems incompatible with Wikimedia's CC-BY-SA licensing. Should this File be deleted? Mathglot (talk) 01:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Looks like a non-copyright restriction to me: the museum certainly does not own a copyright on the object in question. Possibly the uploader (Pinging @ArchaiOptix has put themself in a legally difficult place by offering a CC-BY-SA license if they took the picture on a basis that did not allow for commercial use. I'd support a courtesy deletion if the uploader requested it, but there is no copyright issue. - Jmabel ! talk 03:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I have removed the request that re-users contact the museum for permission. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • I removed the same text from around 1000 other pages, but another 4000+ remain. This needs a bot to clean up. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      @Pigsonthewing: I can go through and use AutoWikiBrowser to deal with some of it if you want. Although I wonder if the whole paragraph should be deleted, not just the last sentence. Since it doesn't really matter what conditions the museum has in place for people taking photographs of their exhibits. At least it doesn't on our end. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      @Adamant1: Thank you. I shan't object if someone removes the whole paragraph. but the "please call" wording definitely needs to go. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      (after several edit conflicts) @Pigsonthewing and Adamant1: I would advise against automated removal here. The file linked above is from a Greek museum, so it may be that the other cases are also from Greek museums. The combination of the unusual warning text and the location suggests there may be some COM:FOP Greece issues lurking among them. A manual check to see if the images are of ancient relics (public domain) or modern replicas (copyrightable) would be wise before removing the text. From Hill To Shore (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      Any such issues, if thy exist, are orthogonal to the issue of whether or not Commons should tell people they must contact a museum before using one of our images (in whatever circumstances). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I had not run into this particular wrinkle of copyright before. Comments above led me to Non-copyright restriction, and COM:CSM#Museum and interior photography which it links to, so I think I understand the comments above in light of those two, and our approach of "that's between you and the museum", which seems sensible in this case.
    It did, however, lead me to a thought experiment (mostly o/t for this discussion) regarding a similar situation as we have here, except that instead of a museum being the repository with house rules, imagine it's a government. I wonder what our reaction would be to someone uploading the Pentagon papers, or an Edward Snowden uploading the NSA global surveillance documents here, instead of where they did. U.S. government publications are generally not copyrightable so I assume documents created by govt. employees and marked "secret" would fall squarely under the NCR guideline, and therefore would be "between the uploader and the [government agency]". It's interesting to note that although COM:CSM#Images released under a free license says of US govt. pubs that "most government-created works are as a matter of policy released into the public domain", and this may be true, it implies that the ones that are not released are not in the public domain. But this is at least misleading as unnecessarily restrictive, since publications created by U.S. govt. employees are not copyrightable (17 U.S.C. § 105). I wondered if the wording at NCR is either an oversight, or an intentional (and understandable) bit of intentional omission, so that we don't encourage the kind of activity that an Ellsberg, Snowden, or Assange got involved in and end up finding ourselves in their position. I'd rather see our charitable funding going into more servers and better software support, than falling into the black hole of endless litigation. At first I had thought, maybe the writer of that sentence was somebody at legal had that in mind and was quite careful and intentional about the wording we see, but given that it's been there since the initial version, it's probably just random. Mathglot (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Are the Wikimedia PD rules for Afghanistan correct?[edit]

I am reading the 2008 copyright law of Afghanistan, and from what I can see, more is under public domain than the PD-Afghanistan template suggests. It would appear that the law only protects photographs (defined under "audiovisual works") that are either created for broadcast via TV or radio, or created "using an innovative mode".

Does this mean that photographs that are neither created for broadcast nor innovatively created are in the Afghan public domain? Zanahary (talk) 03:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just my opinion, but "innovatively created" is probably to ambigious of a term to read antyhing into. Especially if what your reading into it is that most or all photographs are probably PD. At least not without using legal commentary or something to back it up with. Otherwise, "innovatively created" could mean quite a lot of things depending. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:34, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Adamant1: there have been quite a few countries where basic photography -- snapshots -- are not normally eligible for copyright, or have a very short term of copyright, while still extending copyright to higher-quality work. Obviously, in the current era such distinctions have become harder to make. - Jmabel ! talk 21:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm aware. That could very well be the case here to, but it really depends on what the law means by "innovatively created." --Adamant1 (talk) 21:32, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Railway with a Heart of Gold[edit]

Railway with a Heart of Gold is an American short documentary, filmed in the UK in 1953 by American producer Carson Davidson and released in 1965. As far as I can see, it has no copyright notice. The movie can be seen here [2]. Could a copyright expert confirm it is eligible for {{PD-US-no notice}} please? Voice of Clam 16:08, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Murano/Venetian beads[edit]

Are my own photos of a contemporary handmade glass bead from Murano/Venice allowed to be in Commons repository? Here are the links to the photos: and . Thanks in advance for your answers. Hortensja Bukietowa (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John Steinbeck book covers[edit]

Would like some input on the copyright licenses of File:Tortilla Flat (1935 1st ed dust jacket).jpg, File:Of Mice and Men (1937 1st ed dust jacket).jpg, File:The Grapes of Wrath (1939 1st ed cover).jpg, File:Cannery Row (1945 1st ed dust jacket).jpg, File:The Pearl (1947 1st ed dust jacket).jpg and File:East of Eden (1952 1st ed dust jacket).jpg? These files were all uploaded by Blz 2049 with the same detailed justification for the {{PD-US-no notice}} licensing. While this justification does correctly reflect what is written about dust jackets requiring separate copyright notices in 2207.01(C) on page 18 of the The Compendium of U.S. Copyright Office Practices: Chapter 2200, I'm not sure that applies to these particular dust jackets because of what's written in "2201 What This Chapter Covers" of that same compendium. Section (Clause?) 2201 states the following:

This Chapter discusses the notice requirements for U.S. works published in copies and phonorecords in the United States between January 1, 1978 and February 28, 1989, when copyright notice was required for published works. This Chapter does not cover works published before January 1, 1978 under the Copyright Act of 1909. For information on the notice requirements for works first published prior to January 1, 1978, see Chapter 2100 (Renewal Registration).

All of the file uploads are of works published prior to January 1, 1978. Moreover, the no-notice license itself only applies to works uploaded between 1928 and 1977 (inclusive) which would seem to mean that the compendium cited cannot be used to justify any such claim. Now, it's possible there was a similar "dust jacket" clause in Copyright Act of 1901, but I'm not sure about that. It's also possible that these covers might actually be {{PD-US-not renewed}} under the terms of the 1901 Act, but that's a different license with a completely different rationale. So, I'm wondering if these files are OK as licensed and what should be done about them if they're not. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In addition to the six Steinbeck files mentioned above, the same "dusk jacket" rationale is also being to File:Absalom, Absalom! (1936 1st ed cover).jpg, File:The Catcher in the Rye (1951, first edition cover).jpg, File:The Catcher in the Rye (1951, first edition dust jacket).jpg, File:Invisible Man (1952 1st ed jacket cover).jpg, File:To Kill a Mockingbird (first edition cover).jpg and File:Gravity's Rainbow (1973 1st ed cover).jpg also uploaded by Blz 2049. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:17, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Marchjuly: does {{US book dust jacket 1909–1977}} cover your concern (so to speak)? - Jmabel ! talk 03:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Marchjuly: My relatively inexperienced take is that {{PD-US-no notice}} is indeed the correct license here. The long explanation by the original uploader doesn't affect the license itself; it simply points out, for those who may be unaware of the fact, that in the case of pre-1989 publications in which copyright notices were required to be present, the courts consider the copyright of the dust jacket or book cover to be a separate issue from that of the book itself. That this principle extends retroactively to pre-1978 publications is shown by the case of the Jaws cover, which is cited in the {{US book dust jacket 1909–1977}} template that Jmabel linked. That case concerned the cover of the 1974 paperback edition, which was physically attached to the book, and the arguments supporting PD-US-no-notice set out in the decision apply even more strongly to unattached dust jackets like the ones you're asking about. But if I'm wrong I'd be happy to be corrected by those who know more. Choliamb (talk) 13:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you Jmabel and Choliamb for the additional information. The licensing seems to check out based on what you two posted. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:52, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Use of logo from civil society organization with or without seeking permission[edit]

First up, I searched this site for prior advice without much success. I would like to add a low‑resolution bitmap of a logo to this particular article on Scientist Rebellion. And it would be easier for me not to have to seek permission. I now have a reasonable screenshot, improved by zooming in on my web‑browser. That logo measures 858 × 238px. I had guessed that I should be able to upload that particular PNG file under fair use arguments. But the upload wizard does not provide for fair use as an option. I would doubt if the logo has been trademarked anywhere, but I have not yet followed up that matter. How should I proceed? Do I need to talk to the organization? In which case, I imagine I will need to ask for a suitable open license, possibly the Creative Commons CC‑BY‑SA‑4.0 license would be a good option? TIA. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@RobbieIanMorrison:
Commons does not accept images under fair use. You may upload fair use images to en.Wiki under certain conditions. Glrx (talk) 23:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi RobbieIanMorrison. If the logo is too simple to be eligible for copyright protection under US copyright law and the copyright law of its country of origin/first publication, then it might be OK to upload using the license {{PD-textlogo}}. It is, however, impossible to make such an assessment without actually seeing the logo. So, if you can provide a link to it, then that would be helpful. Otherwise, as pointed out above, you will need to get the COM:CONSENT of the logo's copyright holder because Commons doesn't accept any type of fair use/fair dealing content. Now, also as pointed out above, English Wikipedia does allow copyrighted content to be uploaded as non-free content, but English Wikipedia's non-free content use policy is much more restrictive than fair use as explained here. For example, English Wikipedia does generally allow non-free logos to be uploaded as long as they're being used for primary identification purposes at the tops of or in the main infoboxes of stand-alone articles about whatever the logo represents, but it typically doesn't allow allow such logos to be used in other articles or in other ways. So, if the logo you want to upload is the main logo used by "Scientist Rebellion" for branding purposes, it should be OK to upload as non-free content as long as it's used in the main infobox of the article about the organization; otherwise, it's going to be much harder and most likely impossible to justify the non-free use of the logo. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My thanks to Glrx and Marchjuly. I understand most of that discussion. (In passing, I know quite a lot about intellectual property law as it relates to data, please see: forum.openmod.org/t/4399.) I think I will contact Scientist Rebellion about licensing their logo under CC‑BY‑SA‑4.0. The logo is simple: just their name set in a typewriter font and the famous "climate stripes" incorporated below. For an example, see the top‑left here: scientistrebellion.org. If that effort fails, I will work my way thru the Wikipedia EN protocols for use via branding. Your answers much appreciated. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:55, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi, Since we already have File:20181204 Warming stripes (global, WMO, 1850-2018) - Climate Lab Book (Ed Hawkins).png, this logo seems acceptable under {{CC-BY-SA-4.0}}. Yann (talk) 12:10, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@RobbieIanMorrison: Can you upload it using {{CC-BY-SA-4.0}} and/or {{PD-ineligible}} without zooming in? We have scaling capability built in, as described at en:H:PIC.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 12:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. I have contacted Scientist Rebellion to explore whether they would officially release under CC‑BY‑SA‑4.0. And I'd like to let that run a couple of days before doing something unilaterally. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 16:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just adding the Scientist Rebellion style guide, albeit silent on licensing (except the loose terms of use for the XR hourglass symbol): scientistrebellion.org/docs/2/scientist-rebellion-design-and-style-guide.pdf RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 09:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also the climate stripes are now being published under CC‑BY‑4.0: showyourstripes.info RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 09:33, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If the stripes are CC-BY 4.0 and the rest of the logo is ineligible, then that's all we need. - Jmabel ! talk 18:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. I have the style guide, the original font, and an SVG for the stripes, so I'll do this in Inkscape. I should add that the style guide encourages others to produce related material using their house style — although of course those sentiments are not sufficiently legal for Wikimedia. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Uploaded SVG file
I waited two days for a response from Scientist Rebellion, but nothing so far. Here is the SVG file I uploaded [depicted on right]. Thanks for everyones' help. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 14:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Apparent upload is File:Horizontal logo for Scientist Rebellion without fonts.svg. Glrx (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
... as displayed to the right.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 17:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Century 21 Calling and Mr. B Natural[edit]

Is it possible that Century 21 Calling and Mr. B Natural in the public domain as per {{PD-US-no notice}}? Lugamo94 (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The National Film Preservation Foundation's Guide to Sponsored Films lists Mr. B Natural and Century 21 Calling as unregistered for copyright and I couldn't find any renewals at the online Copyright Office search, so they're in the public domain, and PD-US-no notice works if you don't see one.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. Lugamo94 (talk) 18:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Mass-changes of licences for typeface samples?[edit]

User Chewzy appears to have changed the licences of a few hundred typeface samples, such as this one, without prior notice. I am not sure if that is allowed, and even if so, I think such a move should have been discussed first. --Minoa (talk) 20:11, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This should be reverted. For anything but the simplest of plain text, a CC license is stronger than PD-text because the former is a license while the latter is merely a description. So a user in the UK would not be able to use the image under PD-text, for instance, since it is probably above COM:TOO UK. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I probably need help because there is like more than 400 files affected by the unauthorised licence change. I don't have the tools or the time to mass-revert them all. --Minoa (talk) 01:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Minoa and King of Hearts: I rolled back 448 of them for you per special:diff/829134151.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 23:58, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jeff G.: Thanks for stepping in. --Minoa (talk) 01:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Minoa: You're welcome.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 01:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You cannot claim copyright on "abcdefghijk" or "a quick brown fox".--Chewzy (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

True, but you can claim copyright, even in the US, on computer programs that draw characters, which TTF and SVG files are. And as King of Hearts points out, this is more complex than a simple string.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:17, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Chewzy: The quick brown fox jumped over a lazy dog named Chewzy, who messed with copyright tags 448 times. Don't do that again.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 02:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It would be news to me that we have ever tried to claim software copyright for our SVG files. It is not in line with our project goals to advocate for further copyright restrictions and undermine important copyright exceptions, especially to further the use of such dubious tricks. We want easier access to the world's knowledge and a more robust public domain, not less.--Chewzy (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"We" claim copyright on "our" SVG files? We could just change all the licenses on the files to PD on that argument. They aren't our files to claim copyright on or not, the uploaders have the right to claim copyright on them. TTF copyrights are very clearly legit, so changing the format of those vectors should change nothing. What we want is a legal repository, not one that has illegitimate licenses stuck on people's work.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:51, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Images with WireImgId in metadata[edit]

I've noticed that a number of images have a "Source" string in metadata like @WireImgId=12345678 which appears to indicate that an image was, at one point, distributed as a wire photo. A few examples of these images are:

Does anyone know what the specific meaning of this identifier is, what vendor adds it, and/or how it can be looked up on stock image sites to confirm the copyright status of these images? Omphalographer (talk) 20:51, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Los Angeles government Flickr accounts[edit]

The template PD-CAGov states that "any government entity which derives its power from the State cannot enforce a copyright", which applies to the websites of city governments (such as Los Angeles), but I was wondering if that would apply to official city government accounts on Flickr. For example, the accounts of Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass, a Los Angeles city department, and accounts for various city councilmembers like Paul Krekorian, Bob Blumenfield, and Curren Price are linked from he official websites, but all have "All rights reserved" as their license. Could they be uploaded under PD-CAGov like if they were images from the city websites? reppoptalk 23:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Reppop: I guess they didn't get the memo.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 00:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Or they are using the default license on Flickr (All Rights Reserved.). Abzeronow (talk) 19:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Reppop: I think the works of a city department could be uploaded under PD-CAGov like if they were images from the city websites if they are not on the list of "Agencies permitted to claim copyright" embedded in Template:PD-CAGov/en. I don't think the works of the LA Mayor and city councilmembers could be uploaded under PD-CAGov like if they were images from the city websites, because those people are not agencies.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 23:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So would the Mayor and councilmembers not count as part of a government unit (since they're part of the Los Angeles government)? reppoptalk 00:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Reppop: I can't read the linked law right now, and archive.org just shows me headings. Perhaps someone else (maybe in California or with access to the California Public Records Act (Government Code § 6250 et seq.)) can chime in here.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 01:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
From https://www.oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/publications/summary_public_records_act.pdf, "(a) “State agency” means every state office, officer, department, division, bureau, board, and
commission or other state body or agency, except those agencies provided for in Article IV
(except Section 20 thereof) or Article VI of the California Constitution.
(b) “Local agency” includes a county; city, whether general law or chartered; city and county;
school district; municipal corporation; district; political subdivision; or any board, commission
or agency thereof; other local public agency; or entities that are legislative bodies of a local
agency pursuant to subdivisions (c) and (d) of Section 54952.". So the Mayor and city council members are considered part of an agency by the CPRA. Abzeronow (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Abzeronow: Thanks! Would you please update the template? So @Reppop can upload from any of the sources mentioned.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 18:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So how would the Flickr link work with the Flickreview and upload process, since the images have the "All rights reserved" license? reppoptalk 22:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Reppop: It would be a manual process, unless you can convince those officials and that agency to change Flickr licenses.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 22:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay, thanks! reppoptalk 23:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Reppop: You're welcome!   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 02:03, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Emblems of the Khalid ibn al-Walid Army and Boko Haram[edit]

Are these emblems simple enough to be uploaded to Commons using {{PD-ineligible}}?
Someone had already uploaded emblem of the Khalid ibn al-Walid Army to Commons, but the file (File:Khalid Ibn Walid Army.png) has a wrong license (the uploader is not an author). — صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 04:06, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Emblems:

  • Khalid ibn al-Walid Army

https://web.archive.org/web/20231210233254/https://i.ibb.co/cbHYXgD/Jaysh-Khalid-ibn-al-Waleed-emblem.png
https://jihadintel.meforum.org/pics/symbols/764.jpg

  • Boko Haram

https://web.archive.org/web/20231210234113/https://i.ibb.co/kDqtNrP/Jam-at-Ahl-as-Sunnah-lid-Da-wah-wa-l-Jih-d-emblem.png
— Preceding unsigned comment added by صلاح الأوكراني (talk • contribs)

I think that, as in the similar case above, showing precedent for very similar calligraphy would be the key. - Jmabel ! talk 01:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel: I have decided to upload the emblem of the Khalid ibn al-Walid Army (File:Jaysh Khalid ibn al-Waleed emblem.png, File:Jaysh Khalid ibn al-Waleed emblem V.jpg), because it contains only simple sans-serif Arabic font (like Arial, for example). But the emblem of the Boko Haram is more complicated: it contains many decorative elements, which are used to fill in the blank space in the circle around the word „جماعة“. Such tradition is also common for some Arabic texts (headings), but in this case it could be above the threshold of originality. — صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 14:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, I agree that the Boko Haram logo is way too complicated to claim that it is ineligible. - Jmabel ! talk 18:53, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Photos of public domain objects (two-dimensional, printed or painted on paper)[edit]

I have found and uploaded two photos of two objects, which are now certainly in public domain. But now I have some doubts. From the one hand, these photos are simply photocopies of public domain objects (a poster, published by the unknown author in 1918, and a seal, created by Heorhiy Narbut, which died in 1920). But from the other hand, these photocopies have a clear information about photographers, who created them. So, are such photocopies of public domain objects also in public domain, or such photos should be deleted?

صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 04:25, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@صلاح الأوكراني: a faithful photographic reproduction of a 2-dimensional work does not create any new intellectual property rights. It's polite of us to credit who did the photography, if known, but they don't own a copyright on anything in this work. - Jmabel ! talk 08:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Chart with data from a paywalled article[edit]

Total active mining equipment and electronic waste generation in the Bitcoin network over time.jpg uses {{PD-chart}} but I'm not sure it applies here. I asked the uploader (User_talk:JBchrch#Bitcoin_e-waste) but they're not active anymore.

My concern: two of the lines ("Total Active Mining Equipment" and "Electronic Waste Generation per Annum") may not be "information that is common property and contains no original authorship". They show data from a paywalled article (ScienceDirect) that is the result of the authors' calculation (contrary to the "Hashrate" that is public data available everywhere freely).

What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 22:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@A455bcd9: Data generally can't be copyrighted, and I don't think there is anything copyrightable in that presentation of it. - Jmabel ! talk 01:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. A455bcd9 (talk) 08:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Concern on Australian murals[edit]

There has been some inconsistent closures of deletion requests concerning Australian murals. Some resulted to deletions (example), while others resulted to being kept (example), on the basis that as per one sole court ruling as summarized at COM:FOP Australia, the "works of artistic craftsmanship" category extends to paintings like murals.

But I do not feel comfortable at relying on this jurisprudence, especially that Australian freedom of panorama – with regards to public monuments –is being criticized by the artists' societies and communities there, for being too open to the commercial reusers. This article, with an interview to an IP specialist lawyer, does imply that street art (murals for instance) are protected by copyright and cannot be reproduced in ad campaigns or other media that do not align with artists' values. Moreover, based on what I have read at FOP-Australia page, it only concerns the definition or categorization, and I do not see anything that directly refers to the commercial exploitations of street art.

It is better if there is a court case that is not geared at the definition of "works of artistic craftsmanship", but is geared to give the definitive answer if commercial exploitations of murals of Australia without artists' permits or licensing clearances is legal, which is the real essence of freedom of panorama; that is, free uses, sharing, and distributions of images of copyrighted public artworks without artists' permissions.

A reassessment on our very loose (and risky) acceptance of Australian street art (murals) should be made.

Ping everyone who participated in all threads of Commons talk:Copyright rules by territory/Australia: @Kerry Raymond, Ghouston, Jeff G., Clindberg, Chris.sherlock, Aymatth2, Nick-D, Deus et lex, Gnangarra, and SCHolar44: JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"[I]n ad campaigns or other media that do not align with artists' values" seems more like some sort of moral rights issue than copyright. - Jmabel ! talk 01:43, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel moral rights, while distinct from economic rights, is connected to the rights of artists. This is evidenced in several U.S. FOP cases in real life, like those concerning Three Soldiersand Cloud Gate sculptures (elaborated in w:en:Freedom of panorama#United States). But anyway, the issue here is on the unusually-lenient consensus of Commons community on Australian murals even if that is inviting Trojan horses to Commons – the future DMCA take down notices from muralists of murals found in Australia. Note that these can be covered by U.S. copyright courtesy of COM:URAA too, and I wouldn't be surprised if both Australian and U.S. courts side with muralists instead of Wikimedia or Australian Wikimedians, even if the Australian law is taken into consideration by either U.S. or Australian courts. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Jmabel: We could have a template incorporate that moral rights issue.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 02:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A mural is a two-dimensional painting, a typical work of art. It is painted on plaster rather than on canvas, board, etc. but that does not affect its copyright status. A work of artistic craftsmanship is a functional object with artistic properties, typically something like a dress, plate or chair. The decision in Burge concerns a yacht, not a mural. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Agreed. If it can be described as a painting, it can't be a work of artistic craftsmanship. The Burge v Swarbrick was on the dividing line between what was a work of artistic craftsmanship, and just a work of craftsmanship -- i.e. the threshold of originality under which there is no copyright at all. The distinction between painting and a work of artistic craftsmanship is more on which type of copyright applies, and was not addressed by that court decision. The concerns about "ad campaigns or other media that do not align with artists' values" sounds like a law not yet written, or non-copyright aspects of other laws (perhaps including moral rights). I'm more concerned about what the law and courts say about the economic right itself. But as in the previous discussions, I can't see any basis in their law, or any referenced court cases, for a mural being a work of artistic craftsmanship -- it's a painting to me. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Since it is a matter of Australian law and there is an Australian court ruling, surely that court ruling represents the current state of Australian law. There will always be people who disagree with just about any court rulings, but unless those who disagree choose to engage in another court case, nothing changes. If they do engage in another court case, maybe there will be a different outcome and maybe there won't be. Although it may be different with graffitti (which is not commissioned and often removed), with most murals in Australia on buildings etc, these are usually commissioned works by businesses, town councils or governments, usually intended for promotional purposes (e.g. advertising, tourism) and will usually depict topics (e.g. history, local scenery) negotiated as part of that commission to serve the promotional purpose. People are encouraged to photograph such works and post them on social media etc (given the aim is to promotion). I think it unlikely that organisations would commission these murals if they believed that the Australian public could not photograph and share them. Kerry Raymond (talk) 01:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The problem is commercial use, and our policy -- sharing on social media etc. would likely come under fair dealing. Which is fine for most real life situations, but is not "free" in the meaning we need to host them per policy. Paintings are not part of the Australian "freedom of panorama" law, so we can't use that as an exception. Agreed that the court ruling represents the current state of the law, and we should follow it, but I can't see anything in that ruling which would make murals "works of artistic craftsmanship" -- they are paintings, and thus not part of the FoP exception, since that is limited to works of artistic craftsmanship. Which part of the ruling do people think supports paintings being treated as works of artistic craftsmanship? Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Kerry Raymond second in motion to Clindberg. The free sharing should always include commercial and profit-making purposes. If the allowed use is only for promotion of the municipalities of Australia, and not for exploitations in postcards, calendar designs, or even for-profit websites not connected to the promotion of municipalities (by website developers), then the murals are not 100% free for eexploitation without muralists' licensing permissions. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:31, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 Comment it appears several images of Australian murals were successfully restored at Commons:Undeletion requests/Archive/2019-12#File:Wyalkatchem recycling centre mural.jpg, despite the entire discussion heavily focused on the technical aspect of the term "work of artistic craftsmanship". The files should not have been restored and the entire discussion should have been redirected here, as I am not convinced of the applicability of the court ruling to the commercial exploitations of images of murals without permissions from muralists. SCHolar44 admitted here that Ms. Pila's article "does not really clarify the High Court judgement but only advances an argument that – convincing though it may be – asserts that the court's 'orthodox view' did not address a further factor, on which she expounds. As such, Ms Pila's article doesn't add to the factors applicable to contemporary considerations of FOP copyright, which is the subject of the section." Unfortunately, no one took notice of SCHolar44's concern. Some other user or admin should revisit her article to know the actual context of the term. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 05:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A quick browse on Ms. Pila's article seems to solve the threshold of originality of works of artistic craftsmanship. It does not address the allowance of commercial uses of murals without muralists' permissions and that if such uses can be protected under the Australian FoP, which by itself is being criticized by several Australian and aborigine artists as being too open for commercial users to exploit Australian culture and heritage. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 00:16, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Non-free artwork[edit]

I just hit upon a whole category filled with artwork from an artist who died in 1998, thus certainly has not been dead long enough for this to be free of copyright. There is another category that seems to include the identical images, not sure what the reasoning is behind that. Not sure how to handle such a mass of images efficiently, can someone help please? Thanks, --2003:C0:8F3B:CB00:1CE6:9527:6077:CCB3 13:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Courtesy ping for @Bybbisch94: . GMGtalk 13:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    {| class="wikitable"
    |These works or the works of this artist may not be in the public domain because the artist is still alive or died less than 70 years ago. Please do not upload photos or scans of this artist's work unless they fall under one of the following exceptions: * The work was first published in the United States and one of the USA public domain tags applies. * The photo of the work falls under a legal exception such as the Panoramafreiheit or de minimis (non-essential accessory). * The work was expressly released for further commercial use by the author or his heirs in an email to Wikimedia Commons. * The work has been published by the author on his website or with an official account on a website such as Flickr in each case under a free license. *The work is in the public domain for another clear reason. Works by this artist published before 1928 can be uploaded to the English Wikipedia (see en:Template:PD-US-expired-abroad). Further information can be found at Commons:Licenses and Commons:Editions. |}
    |Diese Werke oder die Werke dieses Künstlers sind möglicherweise nicht gemeinfrei, weil der Künstler noch lebt oder vor weniger als 70 Jahren verstorben ist. Bitte lade keine Fotos oder Scans von Werken dieses Künstlers hoch, es sei denn, sie fallen unter eine der folgenden Ausnahmen:
    • Das Werk wurde zuerst in den Vereinigten Staaten veröffentlicht und eines der Public-Domain-Tags für die USA gilt.
    • Das Foto des Werkes fällt unter eine gesetzliche Ausnahme wie die Panoramafreiheit oder de minimis (unwesentliches Beiwerk).
    • Das Werk wurde vom Urheber oder seinen Erben in einer E-Mail an Wikimedia Commons ausdrücklich für eine kommerzielle Weiternutzung freigegeben.
    • Das Werk wurde vom Urheber auf dessen Website oder mit einem offiziellen Konto auf einer Website wie Flickr jeweils unter einer freien Lizenz veröffentlicht.
    • Das Werk ist aus einem anderen klaren Grund gemeinfrei.Arbeiten dieses Künstlers, die vor 1928 veröffentlicht wurden, können auf der englischen Wikipedia hochgeladen werden (siehe en:Template:PD-US-expired-abroad). Weitere Informationen findest Du unter Commons:Lizenzen und Commons:Bearbeitungen.
    |} Bybbisch94 (talk) 14:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
None of those exceptions seems to apply here.--Pere prlpz (talk) 22:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

EXIF data states "All rights reserved"[edit]

Is VRT permission usually required when the EXIF data for a file clearly gives the name of the copyright holder and lists the file as being "All rights reserved", but the account uploading the file is using a different name, the file is uploaded as "own work" and the licensing chosen is not the same? Are such conflicts between EXIF data and file description of a concern? I'm asking about File:Laura Collett.jpg, File:Rupert, Earl of Onslow.jpg and File:Belvoir-Hunt-Belvoir-Castle-14Mar15-179.jpg (and its crops). All three list the same person as the copyright holder in their respective EXIF data, which also states "All rights reserved". All three were uploaded by the same user, who also uploaded File:British Equestrian Media Association Logo.png as "own work". I've tagged the logo as a copvio because of COM:TOO UK and because it comes from bema.org.uk. If, however, you scroll down to the bottom of that website, you'll find the name of webhost is the same as the copyright holder given for aforementioned three photos. Should it just be assumed in this case that the copyright holder and uploader are the same based on en:User:Indomitable or should VRT permission still be required? -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Marchjuly: It seems very likely the photos are their own, but probably they should go through COM:VRT to get the account verified, to confirm that they are the same person who took the photos. Or they could simply link or acknowledge the account from any public-facing website or page that is clearly under their control, and then link back to that acknowledgement from their user page here. - Jmabel ! talk 22:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I notified them of this discussion; so, perhaps they will see your post and do one of those things. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's not that EXIF automatically means we need VRT, but more there being access to the files on the internet first (with the EXIF as well), such that anyone could have uploaded it. That may still be an issue here though the one I looked for is not easy to find these days without a watermark, though tineye indicated it may have been available in 2010 (no longer at that site), though don't know about EXIF. It's more the conditions at COM:VRT#Licensing_images:_when_do_I_contact_VRT? which drive the need. If they could validate their account, that would probably be easiest. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is correct @Marchjuly but thank you for raising it. I will follow the link and complete whatever is needed at COM:VRT. There are two other project invites that would benefit from my large archive of images so it would seem sensible. Indomitable (talk) 07:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This has now been done. Given the possible need for future use of my images by the Equine wikiproject, should I complete a more general email to the releases email addresses which connects my username with the copyright holder and allows all future use? Indomitable (talk) 07:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Indomitable: yes, please. Verifying your account as being yours saves a lot of grief. (Pretty much always the case for someone who uploads a good deal of photography outside of this site, unless they always indicate a free license when they post anywhere.) - Jmabel ! talk 18:56, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Are these photos from this press kit public domain?[edit]

I found this 1976 press kit of Thin Lizzy here, and while it originated from the US and is pre-1978, I was wondering if it'd be okay to upload them since the backs of the photos are not shown (in case there were any markings on the backs). From what I could tell publicity photos were generally not copyrighted but I'd like to be on the safe side. Note that I am a newer user here and may be missing something. Thanks! Dantus21 (talk) 02:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Dantus21: I suppose you could ask the buyer or seller about what's on the backs of the photos and if the whole kit was copyrighted.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 02:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The site is paywalled for buying the products themselves, so sadly I can't contact the seller. However, I did notice some other photos on Commons that came from press kits and didn't show the back sides either, so are those okay? Here's an example of one here. Dantus21 (talk) 23:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Dantus21 From my experience, older music press kit photos very rarely put any sort of copyright notices on the front or the back. Up until the mid 1980s these images were generally left without notices to be distributed and published as far and wide as possible to promote the subject(s). In the mid/late 80s, notices began to appear - but always on the front - Example. I am yet to see a music press kit photo with a notice on the back. My understanding is that it was much easier to print on one side only, then to double print something, and they wanted you to see the notice with the photo. The only photographs I tend to see with notices on the back are News/TV Broadcast press photographs, which would have been stickered on by the photographer or publisher - Example. I try to avoid such photos if I cannot see the back, but the odds of having a notice only on the back is very unlikely. Definitely do reverse searches before uploading any images. You tend to find other copies on sites such as ebay and Worthpoint which may show the back/no watermarks. Also look in older newspapers or magazines which may have also published the photo with no notice. If you wanted to upload a photo from 1978-89 you will also have to search the US copyright registration site to check if it was registered 5 years after publication. Almost nobody did this - but still check. If seen a couple that actually did. This only applies to US press kits/publications. Do at your own risk. Hope this helps. PascalHD (talk) 02:47, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is extremely helpful! Thank you so much!! Dantus21 (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Commons images used elsewhere without attribution.[edit]

Hi,
Is there a procedure to report use outside Wikimedia and without attribution, of an image from Commons? Does Wikimedia police improper use of Commons images? Under heading "Images" in https://academic-accelerator.com/encyclopedia/oberon-operating-system are four images pinched from Category:Oberon_(operating_system).

The Help information I found is about bringing images into Commons.

Thanks, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 03:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@PeterEasthope: The entire https://academic-accelerator.com/ website appears to be ripping off the copyrighted content of English Wikipedia, along with the images, with no licensing in sight. It lists contact@academic-accelerator.com as the contact. Anyone can file a DMCA claim if any of their content is infringed. Anyone can also use {{Published}}. Nameservers and protection by cloudflare via their datacenter in San Francisco, CA, USA. Privacy by withheldforprivacy.com. For instance, my paragraph about IP address conflicts, which I wrote in en:special:diff/680930058 04:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC), is on https://academic-accelerator.com/encyclopedia/ip-address without credit. My contributions to English Wikipedia were "Multi-licensed with the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike License versions 1.0, 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0", and copyrighted since I started contributing there. I just extended them to 4.0.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 03:31, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Feel free to submit a complaint at https://abuse.cloudflare.com/dmca. Nosferattus (talk) 04:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nosferattus: ✓ Done and thanks!   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 04:31, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, it looks like the site is hosted by Digital Ocean (abuse@digitalocean.com). Nosferattus (talk) 00:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nosferattus: Thanks! How did you determine that? I reported it to both CloudFlare and Digital Ocean.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 03:12, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Digital Ocean just provides virtual servers (I know because I have one, it's where I host my own websites). They have roughly zero clue about the content of any of those servers. - 08:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Also: you can put {{Published}} on the relevant file talk page with "legal=no". - Jmabel ! talk 06:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bot wrongly flagging images as copyrighted[edit]

Hello! :) I am semi new to commons so forgive me if this is a silly question, but I'm not sure how to rectify this myself. Images by other people that I have uploaded keep getting flagged as copyrighted by User:INaturalistReviewBot. This has now happened with multiple images (examples [3] [4] [5] [6]) that are under a CC0 license and I have even reached out to the original photographers directly and obtained permission to reupload them here. How can I prevent this from continuing to happen in the future?

Thanks! Mercedes-Fletcher (talk) 22:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

On the file page, the page you give as source, [7], states that the licence is CC BY-NC (a non-commercial licence which is not acceptable to Commons). It may be worth getting in touch with the photographer and asking why the two pages differ. Voice of Clam 22:32, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hmm... I'll have to look into that then, thanks! Mercedes-Fletcher (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mercedes-Fletcher: Although the observation data is CC0, the photographs are CC BY-NC, and thus cannot be hosted on Commons. Nosferattus (talk) 08:44, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That seems the case for observations 107130432 and 85380530. In other cases, there is also something more. The observation 175850542 includes two photos (or two versions of a photo). At the present time, the first photo 305646855 is CC0 and the second photo 305646873 is CC BY-NC. The observation 159962340 includes four photos. At the present time, the first photo is CC0 and the three other photos are CC BY-NC. -- Asclepias (talk) 14:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Handling contents of a Mojang repository as example[edit]

Hi!

I thought about this longer, but would like have some opinions about this. As many companies host free and Open Source software on GitHub, I stumbled over a repository by Mojang: https://github.com/Mojang/minecraft-legends-docs. The repository is copyrighted and licensed under the MIT License. The folder https://github.com/Mojang/minecraft-legends-docs/tree/main/images contains images, that are probably from the game Minecraft Legends itself (I am not a Minecraft player, so I cannot determine). Would the MIT license apply here or do we have to take something more into account?

Thanks, --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 18:25, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bot queries copyright status, but I can't see a problem[edit]

I've uploaded File:Admiralty Chart No 216a Mergui Archiplelago Northern Part, Published 1830, New Edition 1938.jpg which is out of copyright as it is subject to Crown Copyright which expires 50 years after publication. This was scanned from the original paper chart, and the copyright status indicated with the template PD-UKGov. AntiCompositeBot has flagged this as "copyright status is unclear". I cannot see any problem, and I have uploaded many hundreds of charts with this template. The bot does not give specific details of the problem, and I have checked that the copyright template is correct. No warning template has been added to the entry. How do I deal with this- can I simply ignore it? Thanks Kognos (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Kognos: Abzeronow fixed it for you in this edit. Please apply that earlier in your upload method.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 00:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Images that would go free years down the line[edit]

From what I remember, the way to preserve such images was to upload them to Commons and then instantly nominate them for deletion on copyright grounds; that way they can be undeleted when the time comes (and I'm long dead). Can you please be so kind and remind me how to do that properly? -- Wesha (talk) 23:32, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Wesha: You may add Category:Undelete in 2024 for works expiring this year, or any other similarly named category, to the subpage after you nominate for deletion.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 00:11, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you, that's it! -- Wesha (talk) 00:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Wesha: You're welcome!   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 00:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just remember that the category has to go on the deletion request. Otherwise, it will just be deleted along with the file. - Jmabel ! talk 02:42, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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